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jimsocal
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« on: March 18, 2006, 03:09:33 PM »

I saw some of the previous posts about attorneys and that info is helpful.
I am specifically looking for an attorney in San Jose to help with the purchase of a finca and I would like to hear from people who have actually bought a finca or home in CR and can recommend their attorney.
Please tell me WHY you recommend him/her.

Also, does anyone have any specific knowledge of Francisco Molinero of LandCo?
or CostaRicaExpertise?
Or Juan Pablo Ruiz?

Also, one guy has quoted me a figure of $850 to oversee a purchase (without closing, as the seller's attorney will do the closing). Isn't this quite high? One part of the purchase (there are 2 parcels) is informacion posesoria, so I know this can be a bit more involved, legally. But isn't $850 a lot just to check the title(s), check with the municipality, etc. whatever is normally done in overseeing a transaction such as this, without handling the closing?

Thanks for any feedback.
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« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2006, 08:25:50 AM »

I would like to avoid posting recommendations for attorneys here as much as possible.  I don't want to limit free discussion, but obviously you can't say anything bad about any attorney in public!!  chief  Of course you have the option of PM jimsocal with your recommendations or thoughts on the attorneys mentioned.

Here are some resources and advice for finding an attorney.
Searching for an attorney in Costa Rica

Another factor is the the AE Real Estate Group recommends using a real estate broker for buying property.  Obviously this is biased, but your question is a perfect example.  What this attorney is charging you $850 to do would normally be handled by your broker, and this service is free to the buyer.  You need only 1 attorney to process the paperwork.  Normally the buyer uses their own attorney in order to ensure transparency and that the registration will be done in a timely fashion.

The realtors have attorneys they work with and recommend, but... ( See Original Post)
there are several good attorneys you can work with here in Costa Rica. The Real Estate industry usually has the best connetions and it might be the best source to find the best attorney / notary for you.
Each office and agent has their favorite attorneys they like to work with and they are usually really good, professional and reliable. They usually work with several and recommend them by language, type of purchase, availability...
Currently everybody is pretty busy here and the good ones are even busier, so they are kind of rare and hard to find. The last thing we want to happen is that a great contact we have established during years, might become less available by exposing him to a forum like this.
Therefore most of the agents and brokers might not want to share this information or post the address of his favorite attorney. Some attorneys I know might not even like to be exposed like this.
I know this does not help you any further, but maybe this: make sure you offer your private email and you might have more luck or contact a real estate agent, I´m sure if you explain your situation more private, they will recommend you a good contact.
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« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2006, 03:39:24 AM »

I would like to avoid posting recommendations for attorneys here as much as possible.  I don't want to limit free discussion, but obviously you can't say anything bad about any attorney in public!!  chief  Of course you have the option of PM jimsocal with your recommendations or thoughts on the attorneys mentioned.
Yes, if anyone has a recommendation, please send me a private message here or e-mail me at jimsocalathotmail.comremovetheselastfourwords.

Another factor is the the AE Real Estate Group recommends using a real estate broker for buying property.  Obviously this is biased, but your question is a perfect example.  What this attorney is charging you $850 to do would normally be handled by your broker, and this service is free to the buyer.  You need only 1 attorney to process the paperwork.  Normally the buyer uses their own attorney in order to ensure transparency and that the registration will be done in a timely fashion.

I'd like to clarify that my real estate broker is doing most of this stuff. I just want an attorney or someone knowledgeable to double-check on it, not that I don't trust the broker or the broker's attorney, but that I want someone double-checking these things so there is no error or negligence. From what I understand the broker is getting the Uso de Suelo, and letters from neighbors, and the attorney - a well known and recommended attorney who also works for Stewart Title - is doing the title check. But I still feel that I want someone double-checking all these things; I'm probably over-reacting, but I've heard SO MANY stories of things not being done right and things like water and electricity being SAID to be available but not REALLY being available. Or MINAE saying you can't build where you want to build because of trees, or etc. etc....

So, more importantly, maybe you real estate pros could answer these questions:

If you have a very trusted and recommended attorney doing the closing, but he is the REALTOR's and SELLER's attorney, should you still get your OWN attorney to double check things?  I should have insisted on my own attorney doing the closing from the beginning but I let the realtor talk me into using his attorney because they said they'd had bad experiences with other attorneys and since this guy was very well known, I figured "okay, I'll let him do the closing but I'll hire someone else to double check things..."

So now I am asking around for attorneys to just double check the title, the Uso de Suelo, etc, and I am getting quoted like $75/hour, or $850 for the project, which seems outrageously high, for Costa Rica, to me.

Another option would be to get a Stewart Title Guaranty, which some say is a waste of money and others say is not. Like one guy said, "Well, if your attorney overlooks something, he isn't going to guarantee you your money back, is he?" So, yeah, the attorney may do the same work as the Stewart Title attorney, but the ST attorney is backing up his work with a money-back guarantee, no? Whereas without the Guaranty, if something turns up wrong down the line, someone has a hidden lien or some fraud is discovered, all the attorney without Steward Title Guaranty would say is, "Gee, I'm sorry..."  At least this is how I see it.

But then, Stewart Title won't guarantee that the land is free of restrictions or that the uso de suelo stamp is correct, or etc. etc... right?

So it seems to me, that if I want to be completely secure, I need to have both a 2nd attorney check on these things, PLUS a Stewart Title guaranty.

What are you guys and lady's opinions?

In other words, if someone is not buying from one of you at american-european.net, and has agreed to use the seller's attorney, what can one do to insure all is done correctly and securely? I'd especially like your comments on Stewart Title or other Title Guaranty companies... It seems there is a bias against them and I'm not sure why...
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« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2006, 03:14:09 PM »

Stewart Title - I'm not saying that Stewart Title is not worth the money, but in my opinion they have only beeen year maybe 10 years and people have been titling land here since colonial times (basically 500 years).  Did all of those people take a serious risk in buying their properties?  I think that is basically where the so-called bias against them comes in.  By offering their services they are saying that the lawyers are incompetent or crooked, so that might ruffle a few feathers. However, Stewart Title offers many services that people find valuable and if you are more comfortable buying property with a title guaranty then by all means go ahead.

But I don't think you need Stewart Title and another attorney. The National Registry here is the clearing house.  The way the system works, in theory, is that all documentation regarding a property must be entered into the registry.  When a transfer of the title to the property is made, the buyer will know of any leins or additional owners or restrictions on the property from documentation in the registry.  Any documentation that is presented to the registry at a later date is not valid.     So if everyone does their job and due diligence happens you can't have a hidden lien or fraud.  Here is an article on the transfer process:
Costa Rica Land for Sale - The Tranfer Process

Many properties are sold using the seller's attorney or an attorney recommended by the realtor as the attorney of record.  It is very common that the realtor has a reliable attorney that does the work responsibly and in a timely fashion and does not get in the way of the deal. Also it is common that the buyer doesn't go along with it.  There is no right or wrong here, but you should feel comfortable. 

You don't say how much the property is worth, but say $50,000.  The attorney doing the transaction is supposed to charge about 1.25% of the price, which would be $ 625.  An attorney paid to look over his shoulder and verify all of the paperwork charging $850 doesn't seem too out of line, especially if the property is worth substantially more than $50k.

In the end though, it's hard to say what you should do.  If you are working with a realtor who you know is reputable, if you know the owner of the property and have verified that he is the owner in the registry, then there is probably no problem whatsoever with you doing the deal through them.  On the other hand you are right to be careful.  So maybe it would be worthwhile to get the insurance from Stewart, but I think also they don't offer it on possession land.
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« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2006, 03:09:21 AM »

Stewart Title - I'm not saying that Stewart Title is not worth the money, but in my opinion they have only beeen year maybe 10 years and people have been titling land here since colonial times (basically 500 years).  Did all of those people take a serious risk in buying their properties?  I think that is basically where the so-called bias against them comes in.  By offering their services they are saying that the lawyers are incompetent or crooked, so that might ruffle a few feathers. However, Stewart Title offers many services that people find valuable and if you are more comfortable buying property with a title guaranty then by all means go ahead.

First of all, thanks very much for your comments, this helps me feel a little more secure. Although the land has been sold without title guaranty for "500 years", I'd like to point out that there was never so much profit to be made, before, and there never was such a big market of foreignors before. And this sets the stage for fraud to occur, and I don't mean just by Ticos but by other gringos as well. Also, I don't think Stewart Title is insuring only against fraudulent or incompetent lawyers or notarios, but also against simple oversight. Doctors in the U.S. are not incompetent, yet there is room for human error, and thus medical malpraactice insurance. Also, Stewart Title offers their services all over the world including the U.S., not only in the 3rd world. I am not totally "sold" on Stewart Title yet, but I do think I will pay the $800 to insure my $50k land. For one thing, it's not all that much money; for another thing, IF I sell it some day, which I don't plan to do, but just in case I do, I think it will be a good selling point for other buyers like myself.

But I don't think you need Stewart Title and another attorney. The National Registry here is the clearing house.  The way the system works, in theory, is that all documentation regarding a property must be entered into the registry.  When a transfer of the title to the property is made, the buyer will know of any leins or additional owners or restrictions on the property from documentation in the registry.  Any documentation that is presented to the registry at a later date is not valid.


Not sure if it is right or not, but I have heard otherwise. Also, what about Informacion Posesoria? In this case, I understand people can file for ownership after the sale has been made, for 3 years or something like that. I guess that is why Stewart Title does not insure IP land.

  So if everyone does their job and due diligence happens you can't have a hidden lien or fraud.  Here is an article on the transfer process:
Costa Rica Land for Sale - The Tranfer Process
Thank you, I look forward to reading this asap.

Many properties are sold using the seller's attorney or an attorney recommended by the realtor as the attorney of record.  It is very common that the realtor has a reliable attorney that does the work responsibly and in a timely fashion and does not get in the way of the deal. Also it is common that the buyer doesn't go along with it.  There is no right or wrong here, but you should feel comfortable.

I always felt that if you have a very good and  RECOMMENDED attorney, it should not matter if he is "the seller's attorney". However, the one way this might come into play in a negative way, is for example if there were some question about something that might go one way or the other. Well, if the attorney gets tens of thousands of dollars of business per year from the seller and he is only making $1200 from you, who do you think he will side with or lean towards? For this reason I do think there is a legitimate reason to get one's own attorney, as a buyer. Of course if the notario is completely honest and fair, then it would not be necessary, but .... money usually talks... and people listen.

In the end though, it's hard to say what you should do.  If you are working with a realtor who you know is reputable, if you know the owner of the property and have verified that he is the owner in the registry, then there is probably no problem whatsoever with you doing the deal through them.  On the other hand you are right to be careful.  So maybe it would be worthwhile to get the insurance from Stewart, but I think also they don't offer it on possession land.
The land in question is 21 hectares of titled land and there is one 1-hectare adjacent piece that is informacion posesoria. However, that one small piece is a very important piece as it has the best home site and road access. There may be some road access aside from that piece, but if there is, it isn't very wide. However, there are letters from people saying they know the land does belong to the sellers, and there are taxes paid on it, and the 3 year period for objection is almost up (up in November).

I don't know if Stewart Title will title the larger titled finca since the purchase price is based on the whole finca including the IP land.
But it is because of this little IP piece that I have hired a 2nd attorney to look over the title and IP info, and why I am quite a bit more nervous about the deal than I otherwise would be.

However, the sellers are known to the realtors as being upstanding, having sold 2 other properties through them, and they are known to the realtor's wife's family. And there is some kind of law which makes adding less than 10% of an untitled property to a larger finca, easier somehow, though I am not clear on how this works or what it really means. If you do, maybe you could expand on this ; or maybe it is in the article you linked me to.

In any case, I appreciate all your feedback. Thank you.
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« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2006, 02:44:05 PM »

I'm glad we could work through all the variables and I think you have come to a good decision.  Here is some information on possession rights, which is actually another form of title and very common in rural areas. 

Possession rights can be bought and sold, so many Ticos never never bother to register the full title, which is the case here.  There are 2 main characteristics that a normal title has that possession rights don't 1) the possibility of mortgaging the property 2) the property can be owned by a corporation. We have also mention that Title Guaranty companies don't work with possession rights.

Getting Title Normalized.
You have the choice of buying the possession rights and registering them in your name.  This is the best option in my opinion and the seller will also prefer this! However you would be wise to live on the property in this case.  You can go through the title process at a later date, or sell at a later date under the same rights.  You can also go through the title process immediately, the seller and your realtor would assist with lining up the witnesses. A lawyer I know will told me it would cost a minimum of $5000, take 2 years and it is possible a different lawyer would charge less. A lawyer could charge more, depending on the actual value of the property.

The important factors are the five Ps of Possession: Public, Problem Free, Persistent, Positive, and Public.  (if you didn't see the movie Dodge Ball you don't have to laugh) 
Public - Someone has to have held the land in an open, visible fashion for 10 years. 
Problem Free - The possession cannot be disputed by neighbors or the former possessor or owner.
Persistent - The possession has to be uninterrupted.
Positive - This requires building structures, having animals or planting.
Public - Let's point out here that the transfer contract should clearly state that the possession rights are being transferred for consideration (cash)

Possession rights that are being sold have been registered in the national registry, so you can see a Plano Catastro and look up the number on the web. 
http://www.registronacional.go.cr/ 
It is important to emphasize the transferability.  You can have Buyer A with 3 years, Buyer B with 4 years, and Buyer C will only have to possess for 3 more years before being able to normalize title to the land.
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« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2006, 09:10:13 PM »

I didn't see the request for real estate attorneys until now. All attorneys listed on my website I have worked with many times, on easy and difficult closings. They're all real estate specialists: http://www.godutchrealty.com/attorney.shtml
You'll see that Francisco Molinero is one of them. I have never worked with Juan Pablo Ruiz.
Hope this helps
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« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2006, 07:30:22 PM »

I'm glad we could work through all the variables and I think you have come to a good decision.  Here is some information on possession rights, which is actually another form of title and very common in rural areas. 

Possession rights can be bought and sold, so many Ticos never never bother to register the full title, which is the case here.  There are 2 main characteristics that a normal title has that possession rights don't 1) the possibility of mortgaging the property 2) the property can be owned by a corporation. We have also mention that Title Guaranty companies don't work with possession rights.

So I cannot put the untitled land into my S.A. name? So I have to register the untitled piece in MY personal name even though the rest of the property will be under the name of my S.A.? Even if it is all combined into one finca?

Getting Title Normalized.
You have the choice of buying the possession rights and registering them in your name.  This is the best option in my opinion and the seller will also prefer this! However you would be wise to live on the property in this case.  You can go through the title process at a later date, or sell at a later date under the same rights.  You can also go through the title process immediately, the seller and your realtor would assist with lining up the witnesses. A lawyer I know will told me it would cost a minimum of $5000, take 2 years and it is possible a different lawyer would charge less. A lawyer could charge more, depending on the actual value of the property.

Why is it the "best" option to buy the rights andput them in my own name? Even so, I do not plan to live on the property; I could have it checked monthly by someone, if the concern is paracaistas. The realtor and attorney made it sound like it would be easy to put the untitled land in my name; they said that if I attach it to the larger finca, it is easy. Never said anything about a lot of money being needed to do it, and I think $5k is a lot of money! Why does it cost this much? I thought it was mostly just presenting the paperwork to a judge and then waiting... They said all I'd have to do is get a survey of the smaller piece and then add it on in my (my S.A.) name...

The important factors are the five Ps of Possession: Public, Problem Free, Persistent, Positive, and Public.  (if you didn't see the movie Dodge Ball you don't have to laugh) 
Public - Someone has to have held the land in an open, visible fashion for 10 years. 
Problem Free - The possession cannot be disputed by neighbors or the former possessor or owner.
Persistent - The possession has to be uninterrupted.
Positive - This requires building structures, having animals or planting.
Public - Let's point out here that the transfer contract should clearly state that the possession rights are being transferred for consideration (cash)
I know the owners selling the rights of possession have not owned it for 10 years, they bought it from their dad, I believe, who I think did have it for 10 years, though. The current owners - the sons - have only had it for 3 years, or less,  I think.
They have built a lean-to to store coffee and have planted coffee on it. No official structure such as a house.


Possession rights that are being sold have been registered in the national registry, so you can see a Plano Catastro and look up the number on the web. 
http://www.registronacional.go.cr/ 
It is important to emphasize the transferability.  You can have Buyer A with 3 years, Buyer B with 4 years, and Buyer C will only have to possess for 3 more years before being able to normalize title to the land.
Okay, but how does one prove he had the land for 10 years if it was not titled? As far as I know, the situation is this: the father donated the land to the brothers who are now selling it to me. The father had the land for 10 years. The bigger finca I am buying has been titled through posesoria but they got that paperwork through so it does have title. The smaller piece was added to the larger finca only 1-3 years ago, so is not titled, however neighbors and the 3 owners agree it was sold to them and they paid taxes on it. Then there is this thing 2 attorneys have told me about, that it is easy to add the untitled land to a bigger piece if you add only 10% of the bigger piece...? But no one has sat down and explained that to me; the seller's attorney said that did apply and would make this deal easier. The realtor said all I have to do is survey the smaller piece after I buy the rights to it, and then apply for title. Am I being snowed?

This all makes me very nervous about this land... I thought it was more solid than it now appears to be. I guess my attorney will advise me. The seller's attorney says the deal is ready to close. I have insisted on having things checked out closer.

One more thing: in looking for planos at the registro site, I have tried to find the plano of my property, I have the plano # and the finca #, and have found all kinds of info on the finca, which seems to all be legit; but I cannot seem to figure out how to get to the part of the registro where the planos are, that is, the actual diagrams. Or are the actual diagrams of the survey not available on the web? If they are, can you explain step by step how to find them?

Thanks for the info.
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« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2006, 08:33:25 AM »

Quote
So I cannot put the untitled land into my S.A. name? So I have to register the untitled piece in MY personal name even though the rest of the property will be under the name of my S.A.? Even if it is all combined into one finca?..... Okay, but how does one prove he had the land for 10 years if it was not titled?
It looks to me like your seller's attorney may be already in the process of making the possession rights a normal title.  So in that case they may have already presented it to the judge and be able to eventually register the whole piece of in your company name.  Your attorney will be able to look at the documents and clear up these doubts for you. 
Quote
Why is it the "best" option to buy the rights andput them in my own name?...if the concern is paracaistas.

As to living there, actually I was thinking in terms of meeting the "persisent" part of the 5 P's of Possession, not so much squatters (precaidistas) You have a unique situation where you are buying 2 farms from the same seller and one is titled and the other is possession rights, so in your case the "best" option could be different. I was thinking of a normal situation where the person selling the farm has possession rights.  The first option is to buy the possession rights and then go through the process of getting a normal title, which is easier and more straightforward.  The second option would be to get the seller to go through the process, and then buying the land when you are sure it has the normal title. But it makes the transaction much more complicated, because you would have to structure everything in a way to make everyone happy. 
Under the first option, the seller gets their money right away, which is obviously what they are looking for and the buyer is able to register the possession rights in the registry right away, which is good too.  Then the buyers goes through the court process to normalize the title.  You take a small risk that it will take longer than expected or for some reason it won't go through.  But you are also paying less for the land to begin with, since you are buying the possession rights rather than a normal title. 
Under the second option you have to negotiate everything. You would have to make an option to buy, some money would have to go in escrow and some would be earnest money.  Which is why I think the first option is better and in most cases that is the way the purchase is done.
Quote
Or are the actual diagrams of the survey not available on the web? If they are, can you explain step by step how to find them?
Only the data is available for viewing, not the actual plan.
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« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2006, 01:47:46 PM »

Thanks to all for the comments. This has been very helpful. I will recommend this board and its realtors to people I meet who are looking to buy in Costa Rica.

I'll let you know how this all pans out, with the fincas, and might have some more questions down the road...
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